patching...
Update: Is your club, business, school or church hosting an event? Click here to post it on our free event calendar! »
Welcome back, Patch Blogger!

What Do Last Week's Elections Mean for the Transportation Tax?

Join Patch users across Georgia in a discussion about next year’s TSPLOST vote.

 

"We may need more connector roads between interstates and other major arteries, or we may need something else. But what we don’t need is another billion-dollar boondoggle that by its very nature will continue to require increased infusions of tax dollars to keep it running."—Tom Maloy, Powder Springs

"Nobody I know likes to pay taxes. However, a penny taxed for transportation is a penny saved toward improvements for counties and municipalities."—Dan Matthews, Oconee County

Every day, people in 43 Georgia communities talk to one another through Patch, exploring local, state and national issues through the lens of their town, county or neighborhood.

But some issues—like the 2012 referendum on a penny sales tax to pay for transportation improvements in multicounty regions throughout the state—are big enough that we all can benefit from a broader discussion.

With Patch, we have the opportunity to share ideas from Athens to Acworth, from Midtown to Marietta. And maybe if people in these communities talk more often, we can understand the issues, and one another, better.

Many Patch users, bloggers and contributors have already weighed in on the Transportation Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax, or TSPLOST, most of them against it:

“The regional transportation group expects the taxpayers will willingly vote to raise their taxes another penny through a new TSPLOST—‘We have not taxed the people enough yet,’ they seem to be saying. From where I stand, the government has not shown itself worthy to ask for more money from our pockets.”—Ray Newman, Dacula

"They can cheerlead all they want—I'm still not voting to increase my taxes for a bunch of projects that will not improve my Avondale-Buckhead commute."—KP, Decatur Patch

We learned from Tuesday’s elections that a majority of voters across northern Georgia are willing to pay an extra penny on every dollar they spend to fund local education projects: ESPLOST referendums passed by wide margins in Athens and Oconee, Barrow, Gwinnett, Walton, DeKalb, Fulton, Douglas and Cherokee counties. (Bartow, Forsyth and Walton counties also approved general-purpose SPLOST proposals.)

So, what does that mean for the TSPLOST in 2012? We want to know what people across our Patch communities think, and why.

What are the major transportation issues for Atlanta and surrounding regions?

Does this week's education sales tax success suggest similar success for the TSPLOST next year?

Will you vote for a transportation sales tax? If not, how should road and transit improvements be funded, if at all?

Join the discussion in the comments.

Related Topics: tsplost

William Evelyn Jr.

11:17 am on Thursday, November 10, 2011

T-SPLOST is a fundamentally a socialized re distribution mechanism that expands the size and scope of government. Bureaucracies will collect taxes, have police powers over eminent domain and the power to dole out projects in differing regions. The wealthiest counties will be losers as their wealth is re distributed throughout the regions. Besides the law violates the Home Rule provision of the Georgia Constitution.

Reply

Perry Parks

11:27 am on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Bill,
Thanks for your input. What model do you think should be used for building and improving roads in Georgia?

Reply

William Evelyn Jr.

11:33 am on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Two things, but first I warn everyone from stumbling into a bureaucratic morass of socialism and sloth. I would advance the following; 1) Do all project at the local level (County) and let the people paying the tab develop what projects they want to complete and 2) Gather support from the Georgia Congress delegation to remove the fuel excise tax. Return that 18% back to the citizens and let the people vote in their county whether they want to pay increased fuel taxes. I could be convinced to do the same with the state fuel excise tax, but you would need to convince me.

Reply

Jeffrey Allen

11:44 am on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Two reasons to not trust the state with more transportation funds:
#1: The Ga 400 toll was set to expire last year. The deal a decade ago was to fund the new lanes with a toll for a set amount of time, then disband the toll lanes. No referendum, no explanation, just "Yeah...we're not gonna do that".

#2: The I 85 HOT lanes. That was what the last penny tax funded. Does anyone seriously think it's a good idea to trust the State DOT with more special taxes?

Reply
Comment_arrow

Urbanist

1:28 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Sorry, but the state built you a road to allow you to commute into the city, and they charge $0.50 each way for you to use it. The reality is, they should be charging you A LOT more than that.

Comment_arrow

Scott Long

3:29 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

@Jeffrey you hit the nail on the head. Breaking a multi-million dollar promise which was not just a standalone promise, but a *condition* under which the toll booth was permitted in the first place, was quite a breach of trust. And it was not a one-time breach of trust. They continue to break the promise every single day. (Just a minute, I'm checking.... yep, I just checked - they broke the promise again today!)

Those that cannot be trusted in one area cannot be trusted elsewhere. What promises of the T-SPLOST do you believe?

Comment_arrow

Urbanist

3:48 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

@ Scott - Broken promise or not, that doesn't change the fact that the toll needs to stay, and needs to be increased. I'm sorry your poor little feelings were hurt, but your feelings don't take economics into consideration.

Comment_arrow

GregRodgers

4:08 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

This is exactly why I do not understand why people continue to vote to tax themselves. Once the govenment gets its hands in your pockets it never takes it out. We trust our money to a group of known liars and expect them not to lie to us...it makes no sense at all.

Urbanist is a funny antagonist...!!

Comment_arrow

hazybuck

2:14 pm on Monday, November 14, 2011

Jeff, you're spot on.

Urbanist, if you truly believe that our tax dollars didn't pay for that road to begin with, you're delusional. The toll was set to pay for the road, not be a toll in perpetuity to fun incremental projects. The GA 400 toll should end as originally agreed upon by the voters.

Comment_arrow

Urbanist

9:59 am on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Doesn't change the fact that the toll shouldn't be removed, and if anything should be increased..

Patch_comments_icon

Sharon Swanepoel

11:58 am on Thursday, November 10, 2011

I had forgotten about the 400 already, but with the HOT lanes still so fresh, I think the state is going to have a tough time with this one.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Jeffrey Allen

1:06 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Continuing to collect the 400 toll after the time period to do so expired just burns me up. The opponents of the original referendum did warn of the possibility of the State just up and ignoring the limitations. The toll was designed as a way for the road construction for that leg of 400 to pay for itself (which it did), then cease and become a toll-free road afterward. Instead the State DOT uses it as a cash cow. They gave no explanation, just did it and hoped people would have short memories.
And now they seriously expect the voters to trust them with another open-ended tax? Not this taxpayer.

Comment_arrow

Johann Bach

1:19 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

From a June 2010 Nathan Deal press release:

<i>Nathan Deal, a leading Republican candidate for governor, said today he’ll move quickly as governor to bring down the Georgia 400 toll before the end of 2011.

“As governor, I’ll swing the sledgehammer to bring down the Buckhead Wall,” Deal said Tuesday. “The state has collected more than enough money to pay the bonds for the highway. We are now using the tolls of Georgia 400 drivers to pay for other road projects. That’s not fair to the commuters in north Fulton and Forsyth counties. They’ve carried more than their fair share.”</i>

In September of 2010 while still under Sonny Perdue as ex officio chairman, Gina Evans and SRTA extended the tolls until 2020. Nathan Deal as ex officio chairman has done nothing about this and continues to rubber stamp each SRTA move including HOT lanes. A future planned expenditure of $16,000,000,000.00+ to HOT lane the entire metro-Atlanta area. The SRTA moves are entirely independent of TSPLOST as well as being completely disjointed from GDOT as they fired Gina Evans as their commissioner.

MDG

12:01 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

I do like the idea that non-resident visitors would be contributing to the fund. Just in our district, we have lodging visitors and shoppers: e.g.; ATL and Gwinnett Braves' games, Falcons, conventions, Zoo, Mall of GA, etc. Currently these visitors use our transportation infrastructure for free.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Tea Man

9:09 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

That is the real benefit of a splost, 40% is paid by users not living here. The sunset is good too, too bad 400 didn't have that mandate, tolls never disappear. The T-splost would go if they didn't try to ram rail down our throats, road improvements make sense.

Bill Thrasher

12:02 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

the only selling point to a splost is that everybody pays into it, including those who just pass through and stop long enough to buy something. Every splost has a sunset provision but as that splost money runs out, politicians are tripping over their own behinds thinking up new ways to get more money.

Reply

Johann Bach

12:51 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

The Motor Fuel Excise Tax is the most equitable tax for roads and transportation. You use the roads more or want to drive a gas guzzler, fine, you pay as you go. To tax non-transportation goods and services across the board from the public at large is ludicrous.

That being said, what we have not had in Georgia is an equitable distribution of the proceeds of that tax by GDOT to the counties most responsible for its collection. This has a long, long history but to a geezer like me the first example was a 4-lane between Valdosta and Bainbridge to satisfy then Governor Marvin Griffin who happened to be from Bainbridge. While working in the eighties on a DOT bridge project the ADT (average daily traffic BOTH WAYS) on that highway was 250 in a 24 hour period. In the seventies it was so desolate that drug smugglers used it as a runway. That is just one example.

Now that GDOT is no longer able to hold the widening of GA20 between Buford and Cumming hostage to the long dead "Northern Arc", it is now held hostage to TSPLOST. I have no idea what the ADT is on GA20 in that section but know for a fact that it has been bumper to bumper at the Chattahoochee for at least 4 hours every weekday for years. TSPLOST is simply another opportunity for the politicians and bureaucrats to feast on another piece of the taxpayers without raising the gas tax or justifying its disbursement.

Reply

Nick Gibson

1:06 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

In the past taxes have been raised to fund what is now two never ending toll roads. One was made from an existing lane and has an adverse effect on traffic. The state sold the bill of goods as saving the environment (HOV) and then used it as a way to increase taxes (HOT). Prove to me that you have the integrity to use my money as promised. Until then, NO. I would recommend opening up the HOT lanes to vehicles with two or more without having to have a Peach Pass. If an individual is traveling alone and wants to use the lane then they would need the Peach Pass along with paying the toll.

Reply

Tammy Urban

1:15 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Um....NO! Let's look at the mis-management of regular SPLOST! I personally do not think I need to pay more money so that the money can be used for ridiculous things like SPLOST is used for as it is... astroturf for HS stadiums? What cracks me up is these same people who support this ridiculous tax are some of the same people who would vote out any politician for raising taxes! When does it end? NEVER.... the government, including the DOT needs to learn to budget within their means.

Reply

Urbanist

1:26 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

@ Bill - put the pages back in your Glenn Beck book.

What you, and plenty of other people, clearly don't realize is that this city is starved for better transportation. The road systems are chaotic, the bus systems that operate on those roads are inefficient and unreliable, and the rail service is inadequate, at best. The reason for this is sprawl.

This sprawl, while some of which is self-contained, is incredibly reliant on the city of Atlanta. Maybe you're not one of them, but there are hundreds of thousands of people who live in a distant suburb and commute into the city. In doing so, they use the infrastructure and the services of the city, and they pay virtually nothing for it. So, any fee is less a "socialistic redistribution" than it is an accurate appropriation of the costs on those who should bear them, because of their usage. Frankly, I think the whole 1% tax should be abandoned (although i'll gladly vote for it), in favor of a hefty increase in fuel taxes accompanied by a commuter tax. That way you're appropriating the cost even more directly to the people who are the basis of our transportation problems.

Reply
Comment_arrow

William Evelyn Jr.

1:45 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Urabanist ... fine pay for your own transportation and keep you hands out of my pocket.

Comment_arrow

Mike_Midtown

1:53 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Commuter tax is absolutely the way to go. Why not levy a payroll tax for non-Dekalb and Fulton county residents who voted against the 1% tax. How about putting a supplemental tax on parking? If given the choice between paying $150 a month for parking or buying a MARTA pass, the choice would soon become clearer.

Comment_arrow
Patch_comments_icon

Péralte Paul

4:19 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

How would you impose it? Tolls on to those who use the highways like in New York or New Jersey?

Comment_arrow

Scott Long

9:29 am on Friday, November 11, 2011

As the high tech industry continues its multi-decade migration into the safe, clean, quiet, accessible, and business-friendly areas north of the perimeter with no parking issues, it is true we have more and more people from inside the perimeter commuting into our cities from Atlanta and other such areas. But charging more sales tax to pay for the roads they use doesn't target the user, and people drive around toll booths unless we put one at every exit ramp. Gas tax is the ultimate user fee - perfectly targets the activity.

Comment_arrow

Mrs Lyon

2:06 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Perhaps if the commuters would move to and live in the city they work, then the rest of us won't be asked to pay for everyone else's infrastructures.

Matt McW

2:15 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Videos provided courtesy of the Livable Communities Coalition. Visit the Coalition's blog for additional articles, opinion pieces, podcasts and multimedia reports: www.livcomm.wordpress.com.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Perry Parks

2:27 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Thanks for adding the videos, Matt. This is great.

Gerald McDowell

3:22 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

The Transportation improvement Act (TIA) (or T-SPLOST as others refer to it) is a regional approach to addressing transit. We all understanding that the metro Atlanta area has issues with congestion and aging infrastructure. These issues have been negatively impacting our competitiveness and we are beginning to lose out on projects that would create jobs in the region. The Federal Government has provided projects to States that cover the next 40 years and the amount of Federal funds for transportation is going to decrease as much as 25%. When faced with this several years ago, the GA DOT working with our elected officials developed the TIA to address transit at the regional level. So there are 12 Regions identified throughout the State of which Atlanta is one (the Atlanta Region covers 10 metro counties). Each region will vote independently - so it can pass in a region and not others. This approach moves the burden from the local tax payer to everyone who moves in and out of the region (people from other regions and even other states). This is like Route 66 - although it was built locally, it's used by drivers all over. So the TIA approach gives the Atlanta Region an opportunity to make-up the shortfall all states will experience in the years to come.

Another component of the TIA is that 15% of the money collected will come back to the local County and Cities and used at their discretion on local transit projects. This is huge for Gwinnett.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Johann Bach

4:43 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

15%? A whole 15%? What a DEAL! Thank you Sir, may I have another?

As I stated earlier, it would be much more equitable for GDOT to spend the monies proportional to the regions that collect the Motor Fuel Excise Tax. GDOT is a bureaucracy run amok and they couldn't care less about being responsible with tax money. Check out this little property tax story on Mr. Rudy Bowen, Chairman of the DOT Board:
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/I-Team:-Bowen-Home-20110429-pm-sd

Comment_arrow

No Name

5:53 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

15% return is not a good deal. As Johns Creek Council candidate Brad Raffensperger has said, only when our local municipalities get 100% use of our monies is it a good deal.

Urbanist

3:42 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

@ Bill - I do. And if you commute into the city, I pay yours too. Pick up the tab for your costs, and keep your hands out of my pockets.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Johann Bach

4:30 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

If current trends continue a commuter tax would only accelerate the doughnut effect and further erode Atlanta's central business district. What is the occupancy rate in Peachtree Center these days anyway? Please continue your diatribes about yesteryear's scenarios. The businesses continue to trend out of the city if not out of the country due to attitudes like your own. I can tell you when Atlanta had a virtually non-polluting light rail system to the 'burbs and within. They were called trolleys and scrapped due to past corrupt Atlanta administrations in lieu of diesel buses.

Chuck Shiflett

6:20 pm on Thursday, November 10, 2011

Some of you might find a guest editorial I had in the AJC a while back interesting to this discussion... http://www.ajc.com/opinion/a-transit-solution-raise-322139.html

Reply
Comment_arrow

Perry Parks

12:12 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Chuck, thanks for sharing this. What kind of reaction did you get on your proposal to raise the gas tax for transportation?

Urbanist

9:00 am on Friday, November 11, 2011

@ Johanna, I understand that concern, but I disagree with it. The commuter tax alone can't solve the problem, but if you utilize some of the funds from the commuter tax to offset some of the new incentives that the city can provide to lure employers into the city, it would have the opposite affect.

By providing tax breaks, rent abatements, employee credits, etc. we could actively bring new businesses into the city, from other cities as well as from the Atlanta suburbs. These businesses will locate to where the cost of doing business is the most efficient (hell, that's why most of them located outside of the city as it was).

For Example - Let's say I run a company in Alpharetta of 20 people, and we're growing. I started my company in Alpharetta, because the rent was cheap. However, it's now becoming a burden on me, as the airport is 40+ miles away, it's hard to entertain clients in Alpharetta, and I need better access to more services and social resources. The city of Atlanta says, "Hey, come move into the city, and we'll pay your rent for the first year of your lease - let's say that's $50,000 - and the second year we'll pay half your rent, if you sign a 5 year lease." Now, let's say that the commuter tax is $3 each way. As a company, with 20 employees, I could offer to pay the daily commuter tax for my employees for the first year, and still come out ahead...even if every one of my employees had to commute and pay it. Total upfront cost to the city = ~ $20k

Reply

Jon Friedman

9:00 am on Friday, November 11, 2011

Atlanta has the biggest mess with traffic and transportation problems (we have traffic cops at rush hour in Buckhead!!) and yet we have a "wish list" costing billions more. Add to that the 72 million for a legacy project - a street car to connect Auburn Avenue with Centennial Park. When the powers that run our communities show us that they will make good decisions, and will maintain and improve what we already have, then I will consider additional taxes. I was in Gwinnett county the other day and my sausage and biscuit at McD's cost two cents less than in Atlanta. Add the tranny splost and forget not that the Atlanta Water dept is looking for a penny too. Is it just a penny? Misspent funds and broken promises, throw in criminal behavior with contracting, (airport vending, DeKalb schools) add a dose of APS bonuses to administrators who falsified test results, and on and on. So it is much more than a penny.

Reply

No Name

10:06 am on Friday, November 11, 2011

You are right. The public sector doesn't create anything, just sucks it out of the private sector. And now that we see their salaries and perks are outpacing the private sector by leaps and bounds (not even including all the under-the-table perks and fraud), something has to change.

They either make fiscally and morally responsible changes on their own or the laws of nature will fix it for them. The gravy train is over. Parasites can't suck blood out of a skeleton.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Perry Parks

12:13 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

No Name, do you think we need road improvements in Georgia? If so, how should we pay for them?

Nick

12:56 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

I can already tell you I will be voting NO on the TSPLOST, and here's why...

The "Regional" plan has ZERO provisions for easing the commute from Dekalb to Norcross. Money is being allocated to build MARTA rail lines in places that are already (under)served by buses. What MARTA NEEDS to do is: 1) offer more covered bus stops, for inclement weather 2) run smaller buses more frequently (MINIMUM every 15 minutes) 3) increase security at rail stations, maybe even on buses 4) fully operational bathrooms at all stations 4) operate buses ALONG 285!!!

Thank you, that is all for now!

Reply

Urbanist

1:12 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Buses. Don't. Work. Traffic is horrendous because this city is too spread out, thereby necessitating a car. That necessity = millions of cars on the road clogging traffic. What good does it do to sit in a bus, in the same traffic? None.

Don't try to make the argument that more buses will alleviate the number of cars on the road. That's like saying you can start a flood with a droplet of water.

Now, if the city wants to develop private lanes that only buses can run in, and stops along those lanes (Bogota did this), then that's another story...

Reply
Comment_arrow

Nick

2:01 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Have you been to other cities where buses do work?

And I like that quip about the flood and the droplet of water...and it can happen, given enough time!

I'm with you on the private lanes for buses, too, but that's at the tradeoff of wider roads, or fewer car lanes, which (if the flood ever got started) would be ok!

The truth is, transit in the short-term would hurt the economy...that's millions of dolllars in lunchtime food and shopping revenue that would be wiped out, until businesses responded properly and/or shuttle service took off...anyhoo, so I can see why there is not a MAJOR and SERIOUS push in this town for improved transit options.

Brenda Jones

1:18 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

In total agreement here with Jon F and No Name. I moved to Atlanta in 1972. There were major traffic/road problems way back then. Just what HAS the State DOT and other Governmental agencies done these past 39 yrs to correct these problems? At every level, I am sooo sick and tired of Government Agencies saying "we need MORE money" when those same agencies are mismanaging and misusing the money they already get, AND REFUSE to do the Honorable Thing and stand on their word regarding projects (i.e. the 400 Toll issue). And then there's the issue of State Government getting in bed FOR THE MONEY with the Federal Government who imposes "strings" (Fed. regulations) along with the money. For example, regarding the HOT Lane mess,
NOTHING is being asked about the Federal Government connection to this issue. People need to know about that "connection", the money our Governor (I think it was Purdue) accepted from the Feds to create this HOT lane, the FEDERAL REGULATIONS regarding the operation of this Hot Lane THAT CAME WITH THE DEAL, and the inability of the State Government to do away with all of this because doing so would require paying the money back to the Federal Government, and the State of Georgia doesn't have the money to pay back the Fed Gov't and cut the ties on this thing.

Read my lips: NO MORE TAXES ANYWHERE UNTIL the various Governmental Agencies demonstrate their proper and fiscally responsible use the the monies they already get!!

Reply

Brenda Jones

1:43 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Oh, BTW, I voted AGAINST the SPLOST on Tuesday. I sure did! Think about it. I saw signs all around my area of Gwinnett promoting "Vote Yes! Our kids deserve it!"

Really??!! The State of Georgia CONTINUES to rank 48th or 49th in the country regarding the quality of education, and our Public Schools continue to produce kids who can't even give proper change back when the computerized register all of a sudden has a problem. Our schools already produce way too many "graduates" who have to have remedial classes if/when they go to college, they can't do simple math at a cash register nor elsewhere, and they have little REAL skills to offer a potential employer. Ga public school "graduates" DO come out with disgustingly heaping tablespoon full of High Self Esteem however. I keep wondering just what all our Collective Pennies are really paying for, because it certainly hasn't been IMPROVING ACTUAL EDUCATION. Voting "yes" or "no" to EXTEND the Splost on Tuesday was an easy decision on my part. I gave a definite "NO". Unfortunately, too many other people apparently have no problem continuing to throw good money away on the bad.

Reply
Comment_arrow

No Name

5:32 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

"Unfortunately, too many other people apparently have no problem continuing to throw good money away on the bad."

....Because they've been educated at gubmint schools.

Mrs Lyon

2:13 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

NO to the TSPLOSH, period. Too much mis-use.

Reply

Rick Schneider

4:03 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

ESPLOST was an unfair fight and passed for only 2 reasons:
1. The biggest employer in Gwinnett County in the school District 19,378.
2. Very aggressive sales campaign at PTA meeting, phone calls, adds. With no organized opposition!
Take away the above votes and it fails! The Gwinnett County in the school District voted themselves a raise!

TSPLOST will be different and with incompetency in GDOT and the surrounding Governments who can trust them with all the money!

$690,000 tucked away in TSPLOST to install a new lighting system at McCollum Airport? These people really have your commute and traffic problems in mind!
VOTE NO TO TSPLOST

Reply
Comment_arrow

Susan Edwards

4:57 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Rick, I agree completely. I voted no on the ESPLOST, but was AGRESSIVELY campaigned by the PTA and school administration to vote yes. I was even given a list of items that would not happen if it did not pass. They all sounded great, but I can't even begin to list all the items that my husband and I have put off in the last two years because we did not currently have the money to fund any of them. I got flyers home every other day reminding my why I should vote yes.

I looked at the list of TSPLOST projects for Gwinnett County, and NONE of them would benefit me. And I certainly have no interest in my hard earned money being taken to pay for projects in other counties. I will be voting "NO" on TSPLOST - end of story.

I encourage anyone who thinks well it is only 1% to start tracking how much you spend every month in a way that can be taxed (groceries, clothes, restaurants, etc.) I think if you multiply that number by 12, you will begin to see just how much money they are talking about taking from you to give to someone else.

Comment_arrow

Daniel McAlonan

1:46 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

FACT: The ESPLOST can only be used for capital projects. This means the money raised from the ESPLOST can not pay salaries of anyone in the school district.

Comment_arrow

North Georgia Weather

6:17 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Sorry dude, I'm not getting a raise from eSPLOST. And while Georgia overall might be low, Gwinnett isn't. And what does eSPLOST have to do with tSPLOST anyway?

I sure hate to let facts get in the way of this discussion.

I vote NO to TSPLOST

Bill Thrasher

4:13 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Brenda I think that may partially go back to a matter I blogged about recently. SPLOST funds used to build new schools. I continue to argue that new and shiny buildings are not what's needed. What's needed is to allow teachers to teach. We don't need a SPLOST for that.

Reply
Comment_arrow

No Name

5:34 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

Yes Bill and Brenda. Absolutely right.

Same with slush projects in TSPLOST.

Rick Schneider

7:20 pm on Friday, November 11, 2011

ESPLOST was an unfair fight and passed for only 2 reasons:
1. The biggest employer in Gwinnett County is the school District which is 19,378 people. Multiply it conservatively by 1.5 for spouses and family members and you have 29,600 votes!
2. A very aggressive sales campaign at PTA meeting, Homeowners Association Letters, phone calls, and advertising and with no organized opposition!

Take away the above votes and ESPLOST fails! The Gwinnett County School District voted themselves a raise!

TSPLOST will be different and with incompetency in GDOT and the surrounding Governments who can trust them with all the money! They don’t have the internal votes to pass it.

A big example to solve traffic congestion is $690,000 tucked away in TSPLOST to install a new lighting system at McCollum Airport? These people really have your commute and traffic problems in mind and want to solve the problem!

VOTE NO TO TSPLOST

Reply

Gerald McDowell

2:56 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

On the surface, I agree with most of the opposition of why to vote no for E/T-SPLOST with one main exception: all taxes are not bad. I agree there are a lot of "bad" taxes and there has been unwise use of taxes, but the SPLOST programs are good programs. There are matters that we need to work together on in order to have a chance at a better quality of life (we can not individually provide electricity or phone services to our home) - so there are times to pools our resources in order to make services affordable and available to all. If you look back over the last 25 or even 50 years, many of our problems exist today because we individually (as a city or county) addressed matters that were really a regionally matter. Yes there are more citizens in Gwinnett compared to other metro counties, but when we get on our roads along with others from other counties and other parts of the country, we end up with congestion; therefore, we have to work together as a region to solve this issues within our individual counties and cities as well as regionally.

As we address these issues of E/T SPLOST, let's not throw out an good idea because of unwise use of taxes over the years....also as important, let's understand that while we sort out what we need to do and how to pay for what we need - other states and regions are still moving ahead making it more competitive for jobs and other resources going to other regions of the SE USA.

Reply

R. Anderson

8:25 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

I agree with Brenda Jones. I won't vote for TIAs, ESPLOSTs, TSPLOSTs, etc. until there's oversight. In Cobb Co./Smyrna the funds are spent on other projects with no accounting. You may think you're being taxed to fund certain projects but who knows where that money is going. And I agree with her about education in this state. Kids are graduating without being able to make change, do simple math, spell, write coherent sentences, or think critically. Ask a high school graduate when WWII was, where is Delaware, or what language they speak in England. You'd be surprised at their answers.

Reply
Comment_arrow

North Georgia Weather

8:46 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Are you smarter than a 5th grader? Careful about generalizations. Gwinnett County is not the rest of the state.

Comment_arrow

Susan Edwards

8:54 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

@DaculaWeather - There are definitely parts of Gwinnett County that have the problems that R. Anderson is mentioning above. R. Anderson might be generalizing about the state as it applies to Gwinnett, but even our schools have problems. I've interacted with recent graduates from the Gwinnett County School system that have many of the issues that R. Anderson mentions above. I have had children in the Gwinnett County School System for 5 years now, and have seen some amazing teachers, and some hideously awful teachers. And I've seen rules passed down from school administration that defy all logic and hurt students success. You are making the same type of generalization that R. Anderson makes when you make a statement like "Gwinnett County is not the rest of the state."

Comment_arrow

North Georgia Weather

5:26 am on Sunday, November 13, 2011

@Susan Edwards... I work for the school system in an elementary school, my wife teaches at a middle school here, and I've worked for school systems for more than 23 years. I understand school systems much better than most of you.

We graduate a lot of kids, some are smarter than others, like any other large group of people. The differences I see in graduating kids are environmental issues, how they were raised and by whom, how much parental involvement they had (if any at all), etc. It's not what or how the school system teaches, everyone gets the same education. It's what kids do with that, that matters. My wife has kids that just don't care, their parents don't care... how do you teach those kids? At some point you have to shift the focus on those that want to learn.

Please tell me of some of the rules that hurt students success... I haven't heard of any at our elementary school???

Katie Tallant Roberts

9:11 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

I am a graduate of Georgia schools, and I got a great education. As a matter of fact, I CAN do math, and spell, and write in coherent sentences. The reason that there are kids who are coming out of the school system without these skills is because of the PARENTS. If the parents don't put a high value on education and force their kids to study and get good grades, then what you are describing happens. But don't blame that on the teachers. And on an eSPLOST note--not voting to give money to the schools because the graduates they produce are still uneducated is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you don't like the tax because you don't see the merit in the projects it will fund, then don't vote for it. If you don't like the tax because you don't trust the politicians who will oversee it, then the problem lies with the people you are voting into office, not with the tax itself.
Getting back to the TSPLOST, I agree with Gerald. This is a quality of life issue. Stress, time away from our families, hundreds of extra hours a year spent sitting sedentary in our vehicles... If we ignore the traffic, it will only get worse. We need to continue to move ahead and improve our infrastructure to remain competitive in the business sector and enjoy the success that the Northside has created for itself. This roadwork is something that we must find a way to fund. If TSPLOST isn't the answer, then fine. What is? Let's think critically and find a way to make it happen.

Reply

No Name

11:16 am on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Katie,
Everyone agrees that roadwork must be addressed. The argument is on how to best fund it. We've paid taxes for transportation for years and the money has been misused. Why should taxpayers now be on the hook for the years of misuse? Especially during a time when we are in a deep recession and skyrocketing inflation (which is a hidden tax, BTW). There is nothing more to squeeze out of dry bones. People are doing all they can just to put food on the table these days. Been grocery shopping lately?

There are more projects like HOT lanes in the works. How are those working out? It is a regressive tax and it is doing nothing to improve traffic except for the 1%. Read here. http://theotherdunwoody.blogspot.com/2011/10/taxing-lexus-lanes.html

So again, no one is disagreeing with the problems we face. We are in disagreement about how to fund it. Our government should have to go on a diet and be more fiscally responsible with their funds in the same manner that individual households must do.

Reply

Katie Tallant Roberts

12:34 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

As a matter of fact, I have been grocery shopping lately. And I can tell you that increasing taxes on gasoline, as another person has suggested, is only going increase the cost of food, because the 18 wheelers that are hauling all the food are using a heck of a lot of gas to get it to the stores, and you pay for that in your food prices. So that's not the answer. Not to mention the fact that people are slowly transitioning to more gas efficient vehicles. Unless you were to raise the gas tax significantly, it would only be a wash in the long run. TSPLOST lays out a very specific and detailed plan that will not only help improve traffic commutes, but also make our roads safer. I haven't seen the numbers so correct me if I'm wrong, but I would wager that in spending 7 billion dollars, they might even create a job or two. You say wait until we are out of the recession, but I say that will take years--time that we cannot afford. We need to continue to invest in our infrastructure to ensure that when the recession is over, we are in a position to come out on top as a state, not be scrambling to catch up ten years from now, when the transportation situation has compounded itself tenfold, and businesses (and jobs) have moved on to cities where it's easier to get around.
And as for that article--I find the writhing sarcasm counterproductive and self-indulgent.
No name, what's your suggestion?

Reply

Chuck Bagley

1:18 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Walton County Residents I will be holding my Quarterly Town Hall meeting on Friday December 9th at the West Walton Senior Citizens Center. The agenda will include TSPLOST, the Walton County Projects, the projects and projected revenue for each of the 7 Cities in Walton County with Information regarding the other counties within our Region. The Town Hall Meeting will be from 10:30 AM to 12, Noon.

Reply
Comment_arrow
Patch_comments_icon

Sharon Swanepoel

1:26 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Commissioner could you share some of that information with us here. This is actually a state wide discussion and it is sometimes helpful for others to see the regional impact of things like the T-SPLOST.

Comment_arrow

Jimmy Wilbanks

5:06 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Please ask your Walton County citizens if they go into another region in their daily commutes. If you sit at the Dacula City Hall any given workday morning around 5:30 a.m. you will see a great number of Walton County (and Barrow County) tags passing through (I guess) Dacula on Harbins Road. Though most would not think of Harbins Road/Dacula Road as a regional asset.

Chuck Bagley

2:42 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Sharon, I will when I have my information together T-SPLOST is a statewide discussion just as county elections are a statewide discussion. There will be 12 regional elections each having nothing to do do with each other. I am interested but not concerned about the region that includes Savannah or Macon or Valdosta. All the counties in each individual region either fail or succed together no matter what your definition of fail and suceed is. I will be as detailed regarding information regarding Walton county's region but I have little concern regarding the same type of information for Cobb or Fulton county. Please email me and be as specific as you can regarding the information regarding Walton county's region. Maybe someone from Gwinnett county can give you similar information regarding the Gwinnett side of Loganville,

Reply

John Irving

4:33 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

To all the knuckledraggers whining about "socialism" - I agree. Let's let every county stand on its own legs. For everything. No more state sponsored schools, roads, hospitals or other endowments. Keep in mind, that unless your county is named "Fulton", "Dekalb" or "Clarke", you're pretty much going to be either belt-tightened breakeven socially regressive townships, or dead broke, illiterate and diseased shantytowns, as these counties (Fulton and Dekalb especially) CARRY THE REST OF THE STATE. What these delusional, decidedly lower-middle class suburbanites whining about "wealth redistribution" don't seem to understand is that they are the single largest beneficiary of wealth distribution in the state - people in my tax bracket here in Buckhead pay for the rest of you hillbillies to whine about how terrible Atlanta is, and then demand we fund your backwoods roads, your stupid kids schools and your medicare to pay for your early-onset diabetes. But heaven forbid we want to cut down the commute, increase air quality and join the modern age of transportation for the city paying for all this: that's SOCIALISM, and - as I'm sure you would've learned in highschool had you not dropped out to go to work in the dirt factory - socialism IS EVIL, especially when dirty brown people benefit from it.

Read a book, you illiterate rednecks - and stop asking for a handout. We want a modern infrastructure, and until you can pay for your own stuff, you better get used to the idea.

Reply
Comment_arrow

Jimmy Wilbanks

5:08 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Wow, Mr. Irving, you hit everyone outside Buckhead right upside the head. Get a life!

North Georgia Weather

4:51 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

You must be one of those perfect Buckhead people. I don't want you to fund a thing for me, you keep your money and we'll keep ours. I don't need your money or your sorry attitude about people that live outside your elitist neighborhood.

And vote no to T-SPLOST.

Reply

M.K. Osborne

5:48 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

I dont think his mama loved him !

Reply

Perry Parks

5:51 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

Thanks, everyone, for a fascinating conversation so far. One of our goals in posting this discussion widely across Georgia Patches was to encourage people in different regions to point out common interests, and, of course, areas of disagreement. What would be really cool is if folks who disagree could also consider where their interests might align. This requires a bit more intellectual energy, but it's also how problems get solved.

Reply

L. Davis

6:13 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

John Irving (I've read everything you've written - read Hotel New Hampshire twice) and agree with you. Though you were a little heavy handed I have to admit. But think about this - I have to live amongst the whiny knuckledragging illiterate rednecks.

Reply
Comment_arrow

No Name

7:44 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

L. Davis, no you don't. You can go live with Mr. Irving.

Katie - Gas tax is the most fair tax. The big gas guzzlers pay for owning them. The people with fuel efficient cars pay less. Things like HOT lanes are regressive taxation. The bus boy making $8 an hour has to give up 10% of his salary to get to work quickly. The CEO uses pocket change. I prefer the more equitable tax, but first you have to convince me that it is needed.

No one has convinced me that layers of bureaucracy can't be cut out. Instead we are adding layers of "regional governance." There is no reason we can't work together as a region without having a layer of unelected bureaucrats.

Susan Edwards

9:26 pm on Saturday, November 12, 2011

I have read lots of comments about the individuals from outer counties causing all the congestion as they commute into the city, but if you look at the list of areas that are getting projects the largest portion of them are for downtown/midtown. And many of these are bus routes. In other words, a portion of this money is going to be used to "bail out" MARTA. If these are the areas that need the work, then put the tax there. The individuals that are commuting from outer counties can pay the tax when they lunch and shop downtown. And my husband and I (neither of whom commute into downtown) won't have to pay for it. Here in Gwinnett County, we have done several major road projects payed for with a similar "splost" type of tax, but we pay for it ourselves! We don't go to Fulton/Cobb/Dekalb counties and ask them to contribute to our projects - other than money they happen to spend within our county of course. Bottom line - The small number of projects in Gwinnett County mean that I will be voting NO for the TSPLOST.

Reply

R++ - One of the famous "Dacula Crew"

12:37 am on Sunday, November 13, 2011

Maybe we could spend the 6 MILLION dollars or so that is being used to market the TSPLOST to us to fund those alternatives or research thereof? And based on the rich responses from Buckhead, it appears we are easily missing 5 or more percent right there alone. Time for a LUXURY surtax on Buckhead zip-codes. We can always spend someone else's money and add yet another layer of government cost to support. Of course, if you believe a regional union is the only solution, please consider this; Based on the regional setup of TSPLOST, would you vote to dissolve your county and city governments and combine them into ONE entity for the region? no more CIDS, Tads or Overlay Districts. No individual city or county boards and the same goes for education. Because each of the services provided by these local entities impact the region and consolidation would reduce costs while providing more effective coordination of resources...
Please vote NO! on Tsplost

Reply

Hal Schneider

1:23 pm on Monday, November 14, 2011

So, can someone please tel me how transportation projects have been paid for in the past? Why is it that all of a sudden, we need to impose a TSPLOST for transportation needs that have always been paid for through other taxes in the past? Where is all of that money going?

I voted against SPLOST (mainly for a new courthouse/jail) in Forsyth county. Why would I vote for a TSPLOST and increase our sales tax to 8% when it should be 6%?

No thanks!

Reply

Chuck Shiflett

4:21 pm on Monday, November 14, 2011

Georgia's gas tax hasn't changed in almost 40 years... it's the same cents per gallon. During this time cars have become much more efficient using less gas per mile traveled, meaning less tax revenue per mile traveled... plus inflation over the past four decades has pushed the cost of road construction and maintenance many times higher. Bottom line? Georgia's gas tax would need to be at least tripled or quadrupled to put us at the same level of funding per mile traveled (adjusted for inflation) that we had in the 1970's.

Reply

Gerald McDowell

5:28 pm on Monday, November 14, 2011

States received notice from the federal government a couple years ago that there would be a 25% decrease in funds transportation over the next 30-40 years - so when GA DOT looked at maintenance and operations as well as new transit needs, there needed to be a way to cover this 25% decrease as well as the decrease within GA

Reply

Hal Schneider

6:59 pm on Monday, November 14, 2011

So, Chuck, tell us how gas consumption has tracked here in Georgia since 1970.

Reply

Hal Schneider

11:21 pm on Tuesday, November 15, 2011

Since Chuck didn't respond, I checked myself. In 1980, per capita gasoline consumption in Georgia was 503.6 gallons annually. Population was 5,463,087. Total gallons consumed was 2.751 billion gallons. In 2010, the population was 9,687,653 and consumption per capita had risen to 563.94 by 2005 (no later stats were available. If we use the 2005 consumption per capita number, we consumed 5.463 billion gallons of gasoline in Georgia last year. So, even though the TAX per gallon may have remained the same, the revenues from the tax almost exactly doubled!

Reply

Chuck Shiflett

12:16 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Hal the other side of the equation is that the total miles traveled from 1980 compared to 2010 more than doubled... plus when you factor in inflation we are getting less inflation adjusted dollars per mile traveled than we were in 1980. Bottom line? Our existing roads are taking a pounding and we have less $ for maintenance per mile traveled... and it is projected we would ne between $50 and $70 billion just in new transportation spending in GA (on top of what is already projected to come in) over next 20 years to just to keep what we have working and add a few improvements.

I'm no fan of the AJC's Jay Bookman, but he does have some interesting stats in a piece he did in the paper today. According to hom, road construction costs have doubled in just the last 18 years due to inflation. http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2011/11/16/toll-roads-a-sign-of-political-failure-cowardice/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog

Reply
Comment_arrow

No Name

4:09 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

That same inflation has hit people's pocketbooks too. We're all learning to live with less. Government needs to go on the same diet we've all had to go on, not come with their hands out asking for yet more. Let's not even talk about how government compensation has changed since 1980. TRIM THE FAT FIRST!

Scott Long

12:43 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

So, costs doubled (just due to inflation), and actual dollar revenues doubled to meet the inflation. Sounds like we're set. But even if we're not set, then user fees in the form of gas tax is the place to do it, not a sales tax that is not credibly connected to road use. Taxing something makes people do less of it. Would you rather encourage people to drive less, or encourage them to buy less from their local shops?

Reply

Michael Stone

4:01 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Tea Party columnist Tom Maloy just added to the discussion by saying the TSPLOST isn't a true SPLOST. In his latest column (http://patch.com/A-nK7t), he writes: "You see, the so-called TSPLOST is not a SPLOST at all. Its real designation is the special district transportation sales and use tax. It’s the product of an entirely different piece of legislation, HB-277, that does not include the protections inherent in the SPLOST law. As a result, the project lists are much more fluid, and there is greater latitude regarding how the money is spent. There is nothing that guarantees that all the projects on the list will even be done. If the flip-flopping and money shifting that occurred in developing the Cobb County project list is any indication, we’re in for a bumpy ride over the next 10 years." Agree? Disagree?

Reply
Comment_arrow

No Name

4:12 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Who sponsored HB-277? And who voted for it?

No Name

5:10 pm on Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Sponsored By

(1) Shaw,Jason 176th
(2) Maddox,Gene 172nd
(3) Roberts,Jay 154th
(4) Williams,Al 165th
(5) Black,Ellis 174th
(6) Lucas,David 139th

Sponsored In Senate By

Bulloch,John 11th

Reply

Leave a comment