Just as both the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) will consider divesting all of their funds from Caterpillar because of the key role its bulldozers and wreckers play in building Israeli colonies and Israeli-only roads in the West Bank, destroying olive trees and agricultural lands belonging to Palestinian villages in constructing The Wall, all practices which violate International Law, this announcement is most unfortunate and shows ignorance or insensitivity by our local officials to the moral affront of Caterpillar's refusal to stop sales to the Israelis.

Why are we worried about what Israel does within its own border?

The fact that the Presbyterian Church and United Methodist Churches have historically been vehemently and vocally antisemitic and anti-Israel in its teachings is at the core of their divestment of companies that deal with the Jewish State.

It is false and misleading to refer to the lands captured by Israel during the '67 War as "Occupied' territory when this land is in fact 'disputed' and whose future is to be decided through negotiations.

I don't think that all members of the Presbyterian Church adhere to or agree with the hate-filled anti-Israel, antisemitic rhetoric of the IPMN-PCUSA but when calls for divestment are made, it is natural to question the motivation. Here is the article that provides some of the background for my concerns with adequate links provided: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2190

And here is another article that explains the feelings of many in the Jewish community:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/02/17/presbyterians-hate-israel-divestment/

10 Unknown Facts About the 'West Bank' http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dp4f3wXwyZg#!

Especially for you, Jim McGowan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S9kBaICb3so

Gee, I guess if I was Jewish, I'd be touchy, too. I use the word "touchy" because that's the way the commentator Haya comes across in these posts. Jim McGown seems calm and reasonable by comparison. I am not a Presbyterian or a Methodist, but I think many every-day Americans do wonder how some of today's Israelis apparently get away with treating Palestinians the same way some Germans treated Jews before WWII -- as non-humans. Frankly, I can't imagine being Jewish and having put up with centuries of anti-Semitism. And if I were a Jew whose son, for instance, had been killed by a Palestinian terrorist bomb, I expect I would do anything in my power to protect any of my people from suffering such a fate again -- anything. It is just a heartbreaking situation. I think we are seeing Palestinian terrorism over there, certainly, and I think we are seeing Israeli terrorism, too. I guess it's human nature. We can all act like monsters if we are pushed far enough. Back to Caterpillar, I watched the video of Jim McGown making his presentation. Have you ever seen a more (seemingly) bored audience behind the man? Some seemed to be about to nod off. One crossed his arms and stared out into space. One checked his cell phone. McGown was a voice crying in the wilderness. Those olive trees and gigantic walls fot which Caterpillar provides the heavy earth-moving equipment are a long, long way from "the Orkin property." Does that mean we should pay them no attention?

Don't you think there are misinformation, distortions and lies on both sides?

The campaign you mention may be well-organized and well-funded, but do you honestly expect that any group could delegitimize Israel? Really?!? Not a chance.... As far as "apartheid" is concerned, Jimmy Carter called it apartheid in Israel -- and reaped a whirlwind. He was ready for that and defended his statement. What would you call Israel's policy towards Palestinians? (If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, well......what is it?) As to your bringing up Nazis, I did not write "Nazis." I wrote about "some..... Israelis...... treating Palestinians the same way some Germans treated Jews before WWII." I have never compared the Israeli government to Nazis. I was writing about the bad side of our human nature. I said that, if pushed, we could all act like monsters. Some of my forbears in Athens before (and, regretably, for a while after) the Civil War treated many African-Americans as non-human. I'm not proud of this. But I can certainly admit that my people were monstrous towards that defenseless local underclass. (Those blacks then couldn't own guns any more than Palestinians in Israel can today.) And, naturally, calls to obliterate Israel are chanted throughout the Middle East. They are Muslims -- some militant. What did you expect?

Milton, you don't understand something very fundamental - the "Palestinians" do not want to be Israeli citizens. There is Gaza ruled by Hamas and Judea and Samaria controlled by the PA. These two groups have formed a united government. They have their own lands and their own laws. The problem is that they want ALL of Israel without the Jews...(certainly you've heard the chant 'from the river to the sea'?) The population of Arabs (20%) that are living in Israel, however, have Israeli citizenship and enjoy full privileges accordingly with the exception of not be obligated to serve in the army because Israel is sensitive to what may cause personal conflict even though many Israeli Arabs do serve in the Army as well as in very prominent positions in the government and judiciary. Israel is a democratic, Jewish country with the rule of law enforced. Are you saying there should be a one state solution? like the U.S. and Mexico become one country?

Well, I have already said more than I know about this situation. For starters, I have never been to Israel. And I have found over the years that it is practically impossible for me, personally, to understand a place unless I have spent a good bit of time there, trying to understand its complicated dynamics. I do realize that the one-state solution won't work for Israelis and Palestinians. But it is news to me that Palestinians have Israeli citizenship which affords them "full privileges." Are you sure about that? I mainly jumped into this discussion on "Patch" to defend Jim McGown's right to speak his peace about the Caterpillar company. I happen to know that he is a consistently fair man. I also know that he has a great interest in and admiration for Hebrew and Jewish history and culture. And not just in the abstract, since he also demonstrates great affection for Jews as friends and neighbors. He especially loves the famous Jewish sense of humor. I once heard him say that, out of all the tribes in that part of the world, God really chose those Jews because they seemed to be the only ones down here who could laugh at themselves! I hate to say, "What good will more endless discussion about Israel do us?" Because I think this is one of those knotty problems that must be discussed and discussed and discussed for years and years until we do find a solution that is a good one for all concerned. It will take cooler -- and more informed -- heads than mine to accomplish this. Peace.

I agree that to truly understand what it's like to live in a place there's nothing like living in a place. Having lived in Israel for many years, I can only say that the news about what is actually happening is very poorly reported here (sadly not surprising). I understand your desire to defend your friend even if he is promoting something that is counterproductive. I also have the need/obligation to make sure that when I see misinformation floating around I correct or counter it with information that I understand is accurate. The situation in the Middle East personally does effect me and so I guess I will continue to 'endlessly' discuss it when the occasion warrants. Shalom to you as well!

Haya, CAMERA lost all credibility for me several years ago when I helped bring the Three Jerusalem Women Speak tour to Athens (Only two actually came, a Palestinian Christian and a Jewish woman from Jerusalem. The Muslim Palestinian woman was denied a visa by the U.S. government for reasons unknown.) CAMERA sent me emails ahead of time to discredit anything the women might say. It is a watchdog organization which tried in this instance to censor any criticism of the state of Israel. Both women related their own experiences with the Occupation of the West Bank.

Haya, In its adoption of Resolution 242, the United Nations called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank in the following language: "The Security Council,
Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,
Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; etc."
The "recent conflict" was the so-called "Six Day War" in which Israel occupied the Sinai, the West Bank and East jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. Israel has occupied the West Bank since 1967. Even the Israeli government refers to "the Occupied Territories."

As long as Israel has existed, it has followed a policy of disproportionate retaliation. Though comparison of statistics is distasteful, the statistics at the website www.ifamericansknew.org have, I believe, been verified and I invite readers to go there. They will be surprised and perhaps outraged at the results of this policy of disproportionate retaliation. The most recent example was Operation Cast Lead in December and January of 2009-2010 in which nearly 1400 Gazans were killed including over 300 women and children and much of the infrastructure of Gaza was destroyed. Is such a policy justifiable? Many Jewish people both inside Israel and inceasingly in the United States object to such a policy. Visit the B'Tselem and Rabbis for Human Rights and Machsom Watch websites.

It's 'interesting' how there is a different set of standards applied to Israel than other western countries (U.S. Britain, etc.) fighting in the Middle East who don't receive the same kind of scrutiny. Wikileaks revealed a different story than offered by the questionable sites that you refer to above: http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=217675

The Jerusalem Post articles that you cited puts innocent civilian deaths during Operation Cast Lead higher than I stated it ( ! ), "The number of innocent civilians killed (depending on how one defines “innocent” and “civilian” in a war fought by people who are terrorists by night and civilians by day) now appears to be about 500-600." As to holding Israel to a higher standard, I can only say that I publicly demonstrated against the second Iraq war partly in anticipation of civilian casualties. I also sent money for drugs for children who were denied them by the United States embargo against Iraq before the war. The video you sent me of Danny Ayalon completely rewrites accepted history. And while you describe the 1967 war as a defensive war, I have this quote from Yitshak Rabin, "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into the Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offense against Isreal. He knew it and we knew it." (February 1968) Also, Menachim Begin stated in 1982, "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

Haya, It's true we obviously have different views of the historical facts. Nu, what? Let us agree to disagree and ask our readers to look into the history for themselves. I have been in Israel proper for only a few days, you for years you say. I was impressed with the country I saw--mostly the Old City of Jerusalem, Caesarea Maritima, Haiffa, the Jesreel Valley, Nazareth and the Sea of Galilee (of course), and the Jordan Valley. I spent eight days in the West Bank--Bethlehem, Beit Sahour, Ramallah, Jericho, Hebron, the Dead Sea, Qumran. Did you spend much time there when you lived in Israel? I met with more than 15 NGOs, five of which were Israeli, the rest Palestinian Christian and Muslim, and my group also met with a settler in, if memory serves me, Ariel. Israel seemed a country on the go with all kinds of Jewish diversity, especially evident on the Sabbath in Jerusalem! Palestinians were friendly but clearly under terrible duress and constantly expressing frustration with all the elements of--what I term--the Occupation. I was upset for them, upset to see so many young Jews, both young men and women, in the IDF just armed to the teeth and obviously under tension. My own belief is that

(continued) the two-state solution may have already been precluded by the settlements. There is so little area left to the Palestinians and they are stymied by The Wall, the Israeli-only roads and buses, the checkpoints and the need to get permission papers. So, I believe the only future may be one state with a secular democracy and equal rights for all. Israel is in the driver's seat and must decide what it wants and how to treat the Palestinians fairly as they would want to be treated themselves. They must give up feelings and behaviors of superiority and exclusivity. They must see the Palestinians as fellow human beings with aspirations and dreams like their own and then honor those. It is the only way. Shalom, Haya.

Furthermore, each year close to 200,000 Palestinians enter Israel to receive medical care in Israeli clinics and hospitals. Perhaps you aren't aware but in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, Palestinians are treated like second class citizens - they cannot build homes, hold many positions, study certain professions. Did you ever ask an Arab in Nazareth if he would prefer to live under Israeli or Palestinian rule? I wonder what the answer would be.
Tell me - Christians can have their Christian countries - Muslims can have their (57?) Muslim countries but the Jews can't even have their one very tiny country? That's okay by you?

I think that democracy is, so far, the best system of government we have created. (How's that for a good new idea on my part?) Democracy works better if the government is neither Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu nor any other religion. Governments should operate in the secular sphere and show preference to no faith group. Whenever most of a government belongs to the same religion, SOME group there will get second-class treatment, I assure you. I used to ask my college students in China if the 56 minorities in the People's Republic were fully equal citizens with the Han Chinese. "Certainly they are!" was always the reply. I asked if they thought a Tibetan would ever be president of China. They could hardly contain their laughter;
mine was such a preposterous question.

It's pretty creepy when some of these 21st-century politicians go around recasting our country's founding fathers into something they never were and claiming that the US was founded as "a Christian nation." And most of the audience who hear such statements are too ignorant of history to even know these are lies. It's just more "red meat."

Haya, All countries that I know of put their customs/immigration checkpoints on their borders. There are over 600 checkpoints in the West Bank, most of which are INSIDE the West Bank not on the border between Israel and the West Bank. The disruption to normal life is horrendous. While Palestinians are treated inside Israel, there are many cases where pregnant mothers cannot get to hospitals and so they have their babies at the checkpoints. Other people who are sick to the point of death cannot get through checkpoints to get the medical attention they need and die. Spend a little time on the machsomwatch.org website to get a taste for how disruptive checkpoints are to the lives of the Palestinians. From September 29, 2000 to October 25, 2011, Israelis have killed 6,430 Palestinians almost six times the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians. Since 1967 to the present, 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished. Often children have left for school and return only to find that their home is rubble. (Statistics from ifamericansknew.org.) Palestinians of use of only 17% of the water from West Bank aquifers. Israel uses 73% and the illegal settlements 10%. In Gaza only 7% of the water available meets WHO standards due to the destruction of its infrastructure and because the Israeli blockade denies Gazans the materials they need to repair the water system.

(continued) Another fact of life is that Israel receives military aid from the United States--in 2011 at the rate of $8.5 millions dollars a day! The PA receives no military aid. Israel holds all the cards. The Palestinians have very little with which to bargain. Which is why I say that it is up to Israel to decide what to do.

The 'info' that you share from this 'bash Israel' site which promotes blood libels is of course deliberately false and misleading, considering that figures published by the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development for 2005 show that Palestinians received $304 per person in foreign aid (the number is of course higher at present). Considering that the Palestinians have received such subsidies for decades translates into their having received billions in aid. Of course military assistance received from Iran (and others) is a bit more tricky to document for obvious reasons.
Military aid to Israel is in the form of loans which are paid with interest and purchases are made from American companies...making this a worthwhile investment for the U.S.
Your criticisms are so resoundingly 'selective' as you neglect to mention the illegal building and land grabbing by Palestinians. You also consistently fail to acknowledge Israel's need for security. With both Hamas and Fatah (the Palestinian leadership) promoting and rewarding acts of terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians, their continuous calls for destruction of Israel, the death of all Jews and the refusal to acknowledge the rights of Jews (see their charters), it would be suicidal for Israel to simply lay down their arms at this point. If the Palestinians would accept Israel and abandon terror and violence, Israel would be a most willing peace partner. It happened with Egypt and Jordan. It's a 2 way street.